03- 8-05, LearnTexasHoldem:

Tourney Hand Evaluation

Question: HI!

First of all, I think your website is great and has really improved my game with all the knowledge you have provided. That's why I want you to evaluate something for me if you can!

My friend and I got into a pretty HUGE argument over this (we haven't spoken a while) and I'd like an expert opinion.

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Anyway, I want you to evaluate a play I made in a tournament I played in this weekend. It was for $10,000 and started with 70 players (with 13,000 chips each) and we're down to the final 2 tables with 9 people at each table. Blinds are at $4000-8000 and at the next hand we would be at $8000-16,000. I was at the small blind this hand for $4000 chips. Here's what the table looked like:

Me - small blind (have about $34000 chips after posting)

Player A - big blind (has $40,000 chips after posting)

Player B - has about $70000 chips - calls big blind

Player C - has about $180000 chips - calls big blind

Player D - Folds

Player E (my friend) about $25-30,000 chips Folds (A/9 unsuited) - IMPORTANT!

Player F - has about $70,000 chips Folds

Player G - has about $50-60,000 chips Folds

Player H - has about 25,000 chips Folds

I get dealt a Q/5 off-suit and I think about it as it moves around the table to me that I have 2 callers and a big blind to deal with and why not invest $4000 more chips to try get my hand into the pot that will have $32000 chips in it. I may get a great flop and get a chance to double my chips up for cheap if I can or something. I haven't gotten to see many flops and usually if I have cards, they're all-in at this point being with the blinds so high and being somewhat short-stacked.I've played pretty tight up to this point, but I didn't feel good with the blinds moving up so high and I felt like this was an oppurtunity to make a move for relatively cheap. Anyway here's what happens:

Flop comes 6h 6s Qh

Kinda good but kind of scary with the board paired. Chances someone hitting the six are about 20% or so? I checked and hope that someone throws out a bet that might tell me something, but everyone checks. Next card is an 8s.

I think to myself welll....I'm going to play percentages that no one hit anything and I'm hoping no one slow-played a 6 and I want someone to think I might have the 6 if they're playing a queen and being cautious. I go All-in. The Big Blind calls immediately and I roll my eyes like here it comes. Other two fold.

He has a 6/7 clubs and I have my 2 pair. River card is a 2 and my tourney is over.

After a couple hands, my friend gets blinded out...K/9 spades going down to pair of 5s. Another friend, myself and the friend at my table go out after the tourney and start talking about our mistakes we made. After a while we discuss my hand and he says it was a mistake to play the q/5 at all. He says he wouldn't have done that.

I think that my mistake wasn't not playing the hand because I was seeing a flop for cheap, but it was a mistake to maybe go all-in. Should have thrown out a feeler bet, but I figured I didn't have too many chips to be throwing anything out there and I played percentages so I went all in. When I found out he layed down an A/9 on that hand, I told him that he was a coward for not going All-IN with it preflop with the blinds being so high and him being short-stacked.

Also, the blinds would be going up and in 3 hands he'd be paying $16000 of his short stack to the big blind. I thought his lay down was very poor poker and that he wouldn't be able to get a better hand than that short period of time before the big blind. I told him his play was pretty moronic and that his poker play was a joke. I told him I thought my paying $4000 chips to get into the hand was pretty good play regardless of my rags.

He thought he made a great play by laying down the A/9 because the flop/turn/river didn't help him and he said my play cost me all my chips so I'm a Moron. Well, I told him if he had gone all-in before the flop like most people with that hand, more than likely everyone may have folded (including me and 6/7) or he would have gotten a one-on-one with the large stack. Since both players that called the big blind folded, they must not have hit anything and it's a good chance the Ace-high would have been good I told him.

We'll never know...but anyway, what do you think of my play and his play on the hand? I realize Queen/5 off-suit stinks, but it was a chance to see the flop and get my hands on the pot for cheap. I think it just happened to be bad luck that I hit a guy with trips. I figure in a tourney you gotta be willing to die to make some chips. My friend insists that my play was a mistake, but I'd really like your opinion on that hand.

You can tell me if you think I'm an idiot or hopefully you'll think I'm right that my friend should be going All-in with his A/9 at that point in the tourney which even though may not have won, should have been the right move to make. I know this is long but I really hope you can answer this for me with your thoughts.....

Anil R

Answer: One point that has taken me a long time to figure out, is that people don't like hearing advice --especially when they aren't doing well of course, but that often is when they need it the most. What's odd too is that people are less likely to want to listen to advice from friends or family than complete strangers; I'm not sure why that is, maybe it is a peer competition thing but if you can discuss hands with your friends, definitely do it.

Analyzing your play and talking about why you lost or won is really helpful. It is very likely too that you won't be able to see your own errors as much as someone else might (even if they are less skilled than you). There is nothing wrong with listening to other people's tips. Look at any professional athlete and they will have a coach. Can the coach beat them head-to-head at the sport? Hell no, but that doesn't mean that they aren't able to help the athlete.

Let's talk about his A9 hand first. I think that an all-in play there would be reasonable. It is very likely that if he raised the other people might fold and if he did get a caller, most likely he wouldn't be in too bad of shape. With two tables left, I would take the approach that either I'll go bust on this hand and leave or win and give myself an opportunity to win the whole thing. Was his fold horrible? No, but raising would have been better. Against most people limping in, A9 would be the favorite.

Now for the Q5 hand. Many times when the board comes back paired, everyone will check around. The person with the trips often slow plays hoping to coax someone into betting the turn, at which time he/she can raise. If this were limit holdem, I would probably come out firing on the flop and see who called. If I got raised on the flop, against the players you'll find yourself against, I would most likely muck. At best I'm drawing to chop if a big card comes to help my kicker and at worst I'm way behind.

If a number of players called, chances are someone has a six. I would check the turn and then see what happened. Sometimes you can exploit early position so you can see what people do behind you. If you get lucky you can occasionally dodge getting raised by letting someone else lead out and then get nailed by the slow player. In no limit holdem, you need to much more careful which battles you choose because one hand can ream you for all your chips. I can't stress that point enough; don't get greedy and anxious and think you need to win every flop you catch a piece of.

If you try that approach in no limit you'll have a hard time winning. Always have in the back of your mind, "Is this really what I want to risk all my chips for? And if so, what can I beat?" Notice what happens if you go all-in like you did when the board is like it was. You have three players left to act behind you (which is another major consideration in no limit holdem). Why is going all-in good? Are you going to get called by a worse hand, or are you only going to get called if the person has you beat? See the problem with playing more cards, like the Q5, isn't that you are wasting money by seeing the flop but that you are often going to get yourself trapped if you don't play the hand well after.

I think what you should have done is call the small blind like you did in hopes to flop something weird and maybe double up. Then on the flop check like you did. Then on the turn check again. The first reason you check is because your hand isn't that strong and you don't have much invested yet. The second reason you check the turn is because you have three players left to act behind you. Third, people love to slow play trips on the flop so expect it.

What would have happened is that you would have checked the big blind who would have bet now. A bet there is obviously a flag that he likes the flop so unless it was for a really low amount, you just muck and fight another day.

Let me sum these no limit tips up:

1. When there are lots of people left to play behind you, since you are in early position, often check and see what develops before you commit chips in no limit holdem. The more people in, the more cautious you should be.

2. Don't risk a lot of chips in spots where at best you are a little ahead and at worst you are way behind. Notice the hand above you couldn't even beat a good Queen, just second pair.

3. Don't bet so much that the only way someone will call is if they have a better hand.

4. Have a good reason for why you are making a move before you do it.

5. When the flop looks scary -- all one suite, trips, all in succession, etc -- players often slow play till the turn or river so don't be the prey. If you have a little bit of the flop, just play it weakly so you don't risk more than necessary. Let them reveal the strength of their hand.

6. No limit holdem is a game of the fewest mistakes. Don't think you need to win every pot; it is more about winning a few key pots. You are not always stuck if you have top pair, two pair, trips, etc,. You can always fold.

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