07- 7-06, LearnTexasHoldem:
Pulling Cards From The Muck Pile
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Last week I was playing at a table with him in a NL tournament. I was the button and he was the small blind. The only other player in the hand was the big blind. I had A9 off-suit and an A flopped. No one folded and the turn was another A. After they both checked, I bet and he (the small blind) folded. The big blind called.
The river was as 5 and I made a minimum bet to the big blind after he checked. He re-raised me 3 times my bet and I hesitating fearing I was out-kicked. I eventually called and waited for the big blind to show me what he had realizing that since I was the button, he was the first in order to show his cards. He shows me AJ and I knew right away that I was beat so I did not want the small blind (out of the hand since the turn) to see my cards and betting patterns. I threw my cards towards the muck but it was clear which 2 cards were mine.
The next shuffler was about to pick them up and the small blind announced he wanted to see my mucked cards. I voiced my disagreement and he said that's the rule in Las Vegas and he has every right to view my cards. I told him the big blind was first in line and the big blind showed first, therefore I did not have to show. He eventually turned my cards up and I was angry that he improve his knowledge by viewing my mucked cards. Then I thought back to the poker sites online that allow any player in the game to view mucked cards after the showdown is complete and cards get mucked that were still in play when the showdown occurred. Most sites showed the mucked cards after the showdown.
The small blind admitted that this information was helpful and stated most people do not realize they can do the same so it's hardly ever brought up in our local tournaments. Can you help with the rule on this?
Thanks
Answer:
I get this question, or a similar one, a lot. Let me qualify what I'm about to say: Each cardroom has its own rule book, so sometimes things can be a little different.
* If a hand hits the muck pile, it is dead. A dealer should never draw hands out of the muck for any reason, even if you can see which cards are which. If you accidentally fold your hand, it's too bad.
* A player is allowed to request to see another player's hand, but the request has to be made to the dealer before the hand is over. In addition to this, most rule books state that you can't use this to annoy/needle another player. In other words, if you pissed me off, I couldn't ask, "let me see the rest of his hands from now on!"
* If the player is asked to show his hand in a legitimate way -- player to dealer then dealer to the card holding player, then that player can't intentionally throw his hand in the muck so he doesn't have to show.
Online cardrooms have it different than live cardrooms: In a live cardroom this rule is in place, not to gain information, but to help prevent collusion (collusion is players acting together as a team). Online cardrooms show every player at the table every hand. I think this is a huge mistake on the side of the online cardrooms and takes away from the game.
So in your situation, because he didn't request to see the hand before it was mucked, he was in error. He should not have pulled the hand out of the muck pile. In a real tournament he would have been disciplined for that. (In addition to that, you should never touch another player's cards or chips.)
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