01-19-05, LearnTexasHoldem:
Playing Really Bad Against Limit Holdem Players
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So you might win but not what you expected. So just waiting for the 2-3big hands will not always pay you, because the timing was not on. Another question is how to play in a table where players fold to much. I wouldn't call them tight because they might call once in a while with nothing and then fold on the flop.
The problem here is that i might win a lot of small pots but that doesnt amount to much, and if i try to win more by playing more hands and bluffing a bit more, and end up losing a couple of medium size pots, then i'm back to where i started.
So, even though i win a lot of the time i play i will win about 10-20$ per a 2hour session. So is something goiing wrong? How should i play in order to maximize my winnings?
Answer: There is a big difference in how you play against bad players in limit holdem compared to no limit. In no limit holdem it is possible to limp in with many more hands since the amount of money you have to put in the pot preflop usually is really small with what you could potentially win. Also, it is fairly easy to see how a hand will develop because when someone raises preflop it will be more than just double the initial bet (big blind).
See for example if you were playing no limit holdem and limped in with 33 and someone raised a lot of money, you could easily fold. On the other hand in limit holdem if you limped in with 33, or any other hand like suited connector, and someone raised, calling would be correct and that leads to more problems. And that is the problem with limit holdem, that you can compound your errors and turn one small mistake into a big mess.
I wrote a little something on this site a bit ago about compounding errors but I'll give an example here again. This applies more to limit holdem than no limit. You limp in with a marginal hand because you reason that since everyone else is playing so badly you can make money with this hand (and you, unlike everyone else, can lay down a hand). A few more people also call and someone now raises. You also call now putting in two small bets with a bad hand. Now on the flop you catch a little something, like a gutshot draw, and you decide to call to see the turn card since you are getting good enough pot odds. You call and someone check raises and now you are in for four bets with the hand.
To make a long story short, you miss your long shot draw (which you think you had the odds for) and lost some money. That may not be the best example, you can substitute the gutshot draw with top pair when you have QT or something. The point is that in limit holdem pot odds can lead you to believe that you can catch up for previous mistakes when in reality you are just adding more to them. The reason you can't justify bad play for pot odds is because at the end of the day, if you consistently take worse hands against better hands, you will lose.
You can't put your own money in to create pot odds; that doesn't work because you have to compare how much you invested total for how much you could potentially win back. So in the example above when you might have called down with top pair the whole way against a preflop raiser it cost you 2 small bets preflop, 2 on the flop and 2 big bets when you had QT versus his AQ.
My advice for beating bad low limit holdem players is to play a very straight forward game. Remember that the best hand wins in these games. Get in pots with the best hand -- high card strength. Also, I've noticed lately that even low limit games are now pretty aggressive compared to what they once were. Now days it is more common for the pot to be raised preflop than everyone just calling. Because of this, you need to lower the value of suited connectors..
Suited connectors and small pocket pairs need 4 people in with one bet just to break even. You don't want to call two bets with them unless you have to or there are more people in. What happens a lot of time with those hands is that you catch top pair on the flop and get outdrawn, or you miss the flop completely. Limit holdem at those levels isn't very glamorous, you just need to wait for good hands and bet them and you will win. Another piece of advice is to try to tune into how the other players are playing and try to avoid their good hands.
It is very easy to call raises with hands like AJ, KJ, QJ, JT etc and flop top pair and lose. If you can avoid doing that a few times during your session you'll do much better. Lastly, pay attention to position preflop. The reason you can't play a hand like 67s up front is because you have no idea how everyone else will play behind you, who knows, it may get raised and reraised behind you. You can save a lot of money if you just apply position to your starting hand selection.
Now for playing against players who fold too much, I'm not sure if that means they are playing really tight or if they are playing scared poker. In either case I may try to put a little more pressure on them if my position allowed it. The small pots do help because it covers your blinds and the rake. Also, if you are betting some when everyone checks to you postflop it will be harder for them to put you on a hand when you do actually have something.
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