02-10-05, LearnTexasHoldem:
Not Being Aggressive
The following four hands come up the other day, while playing 2/4 limit, and they really puzzled me. I think these situations come up a lot and learning how to deal with them is the basis for moving to a higher level. I hope you can read through them and give me your insight.
Top 3 Beginner Rooms
dealt to Pan [9s 9h]
Hv___71: folds
Andre2020: folds
inajka: folds
Pan: calls �r>igobroke: folds
Gulo_Gulo: folds
Mooney007: folds
Nasse_h: folds
KJ: raises �r>Pan: calls �font>
----- FLOP ----- [Ad 7s 8c]
KJ: bets �r>Pan: calls �font>
----- TURN ----- [Ad 7s 8c][8s]
KJ: bets �r>Pan: raises �r>KJ: calls �font>
----- RIVER ----- [Ad 7s 8c 8s][7c]
KJ: checks
Pan: bets �r>KJ: calls �font>
----- SHOW DOWN -----
Pan: shows [9s 9h] (Two Pairs, Nines and Eights, Ace high)
KJ: shows [Qs Qd] (Two Pairs, Queens and Eights, Ace high)
KJ collected �25 from Main pot
Q: KJ is a good player, and i know he might be trying to steal the blinds, because he has done that before but always has something. Is this a case where if i was more aggressive i might have won the pot?
Answer: With more aggression, you would have just lost more money here. The raise on the turn is as strong of a bluff as you can put on him. If he called even under that much pressure, he would have called any other round. I would have lost the hand as well but I would have played it differently and lost less. First of all, I would have come in with a raise preflop. You are in middle position and everyone folded to you. 99 is a decent hand but not one that you want to let the blinds in for cheap if you are going to play. 99 in limit holdem does well with either one or two opponents, or lots of opponents; either you are trying to get it to hold up on its own or you are trying to get enough callers preflop to make trying to spike a set profitable. In the hand above your goal with the raise was to try and limit the competition to just one player. What would have happen is you would have raised preflop, the guy with QQ would have reraised. You would have then called (3 small bets). On the flop, since there is an Ace, I would have checked and mucked. By raising preflop you purified the action behind you and for someone to 3 bet you, they would have to have a pretty strong hand (typically), such as a pocket pair over yours or a hand with an Ace in it. Even if they didn't have an Ace and had a hand like KQs or something, you won't be able to play out of position well enough to make calling worth while. Choose your battles, don't see every hand you play preflop as a commitment you take to the river.
------HAND 2------
dealt to Pan [Kh Kd]
Gulo_Gulo: folds
Mooney007: calls �r>Nasse_h: folds
KJ: calls �r>Hv___71: folds
Andre2020: calls �r>inajka: raises �r>Pan: calls �r>Alf700: calls
�r>Mooney007: calls �r>KJ: calls �r>Andre2020: calls �font>
----- FLOP ----- [Ad 2c 4d]
Pan: checks
Alf700: checks
Mooney007: checks
KJ: checks
Andre2020: checks
inajka: checks
----- TURN ----- [Ad 2c 4d][5d]
Pan: checks
Alf700: bets �r>Mooney007: calls �r>KJ: folds
Andre2020: folds
inajka: calls �r>Pan: calls �font>
----- RIVER ----- [Ad 2c 4d 5d][4s]
Pan: checks
Alf700: checks
Mooney007: checks
inajka: checks
----- SHOW DOWN -----
Pan: shows [Kh Kd] (Two Pairs, Kings and Fours, Ace high)
Alf700: mucks hand
Mooney007: mucks hand
inajka: mucks hand
Pan collected �from Main pot
Q: The table i was playing was not loose, but players raised with many not great hands. But with so many players in i though that someone probably had paired the A on the flop. So i played it defensively. And with a third diamond falling on the turn i was again not feeling very good. Should i play it differently?
Answer: Yes, you played the 99 heads up with an Ace on the board very strongly but with your KK you played too weakly. It was a good possibility that one person had an Ace here so that is why you bet on the flop and see what happens. The flop bet is half what the turn and river bets are so you use it as a way to leverage yourself for the latter two rounds. The worst thing you can do in hands like this is to play it the way you did. By not betting the flop you have no idea what anyone else has and then you ended up calling both the turn and river. Ideally what would have happened is you bet the flop and then use that information to either fold on the turn card if someone check raised you on the flop, or continue betting on the turn and maybe check the river. Another point is that if you assumed someone actually had the Ace, the correct move is then to fold, not call down both the turn and river. KK is not a death sentence. Many times you'll raise preflop, see the dreaded Ace on the flop and then get raised after betting. Then you fold, not call down.
------HAND 3------
dealt to Pan [8h 4h]
Mooney007: raises �r>Nasse_h: folds
KJ: folds
Hv___71: calls �r>Andre2020: folds
inajka: folds
Pan: calls �r>Alf700: calls �r>Gulo_Gulo: folds
----- FLOP ----- [6h Qh 8d]
Alf700: checks
Mooney007: bets �r>Hv___71: calls �r>Pan: calls �r>Alf700: folds
----- TURN ----- [6h Qh 8d][9s]
Mooney007: bets �r>Hv___71: calls �r>Pan: calls �font>
----- RIVER ----- [6h Qh 8d 9s][Jd]
Mooney007: bets �r>Hv___71: calls �r>Pan: folds
----- SHOW DOWN -----
Mooney007: shows [5d 5s] (A Pair of Fives, Queen high)
Hv___71: shows [7d 7c] (A Pair of Sevens, Queen high)
Hv___71 collected �from Main pot
Q: How do you comment on the two players play? Mooney007 has raised before with even worse hands, but would it worth a semi-bluff raise on the flop or turn since i was going for a flush?
Answer: Yes, this is a situation where if you had played your hand more aggressively you would have most likely won. Number one, you have a flush draw with a pair. A pair and a flush draw is a very strong hand. You are about even money to win against AA in that situation if you call/bet till the river. By playing the hand weakly and just calling you let other hands take control. What if the raising player only had JJ or even AK? No one else raised so there was a good chance that no one had a Queen even. You also have position on them so there is no fear of your raise cutting off players who might fold in back of you. This is a perfect semi-bluff situation. Actually, since you do have so many outs, it might not even be considered a semi-bluff, maybe more of a value bet. Lastly, 84s is not that great of a hand, so hopefully your call was from the big blind.
As for the other two players play, I think the person with the 77 was getting a little ambitious with his betting considering there were so many callers and 3 overcards on the flop but he made you fold the better hand so he did something right.
------HAND 4------
dealt to Pan [8c 3s]
Gulo_Gulo: calls �r>Mooney007: calls �r>tueart: folds
Nasse_h: folds
KJ: folds
Hv___71: folds
Gstring: checks
inajka: folds
Pan: calls �r>Alf700: checks
----- FLOP ----- [8s 8d 2c]
Pan: checks
Alf700: checks
Gulo_Gulo: checks
Mooney007: checks
Gstring: checks
----- TURN ----- [8s 8d 2c][Ts]
Pan: checks
Alf700: checks
Gulo_Gulo: checks
Mooney007: checks
Gstring: bets �r>Pan: calls �r>Alf700: folds
Gulo_Gulo: folds
Mooney007: folds
----- RIVER ----- [8s 8d 2c Ts][Jd]
Pan: bets �r>Gstring: raises �r>Pan: raises �r>Gstring: calls �font>
----- SHOW DOWN -----
Pan: shows [8c 3s] (Three of a kind, Eights, Jack high)
Gstring: shows [7s 9c] (A Straight, Jack high)
Gstring collected �from Main pot
Answer: That was an unlucky card for you but there is no bad beat if you were checking the whole way. What you should have done was to either bet the flop or check-raise the turn; in the latter case you would have still lost but it would have been the correct move, charging the draw 2 bets. I think a mistake many new players make is to slow play too much. If you flop a decent hand, come out betting. By slow playing and check-raising the turn you reveal your hand and you end up giving people a free ride that can come back and bite you in the ass (like it did to you here). And like I mentioned above, if you do slow play in limit holdem, pull the trigger on the turn. Waiting to the river is too long.
Q: Bad luck or bad play? I played in such a way because i hadnt won a good pot for a while.....
Thanks for your help,
Pan
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