10- 5-04, LearnTexasHoldem:

Mucked Hand Dead Without Touching Muck Pile

Question: I just made one of the dumbest plays I've ever made last night and felt that it was compounded by an incorrect ruling on the part of the house. I call a bet and am all in on the turn with top pair and a outside straight draw (I have KJ and the board is 10, Q, K, x). The person I am heads up against unfortunately turns over the nuts (AJ) and I hear another player announce at the table that he had folded an ace. As foolish as it was I realease my cards face down as the dealer is turning the final card. I know this is a bonehead move, but it prompted an interesting situation. Of course the river comes one of the 2 remaining Aces in the deck. Instantly I realize what I've done and retrieve my hand from the dealers hand. My hand is face down and the dealer is touching it, but IN NO WAY HAS IT TOUCHED THE MUCK. Immediatly the player that would be splitting the pot with me cries that I mucked my hand and that it is dead. The house man (who was watching the hand) agrees and awards him the pot. The dealer mumbles something about the hand never touching the muck, but the decision stands. I always understood the rule to be that the hand was live as long as no part of it touched the muck. Am I correct to think that the house missed the call on this one, or was the correct call made?

Thanks in advance,

Matt

Top 3 Beginner Rooms

Answer: There is an argument for and one against, then the bottom line. The argument against the floor person's ruling is what you mentioned: a hand is dead when it touches the muck pile. The argument for the floor person's ruling is that gestures count in poker and a hand doesn't have to touch to the muck pile to be dead. An example of a gesture would be if you move your chips out and then take them back, but then say check.

You can't do that. You made a move for your chips and that was considered a bet. Secondly, as for the mucked hands touching the muck pile rule, a hand can be dead without touching it. For example, if you say, "fold" then your hand is dead regardless. Also, if your cards flop over on the floor -- that's it. Cards have to remain on the table or above it at all time. I understand that the muck pile rule is relevant to your hand now but you did make the gesture to fold the cards.

Those are the arguments for both sides, the bottom line though is that what the floor person says is law regardless of whether it is fair or accurate. =)

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