06-28-05, LearnTexasHoldem:
Not Betting Flop In Limit Holdem
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The flop is: ks 7d 2d.
Just say all players check. Based on pre flop and other behaviour, it is likely that at least 4, maybe more, players would call if you bet (often people call with bottom pair hoping for trips). In particular, anyone on a flush draw will call, and they are definitely getting the right odds to do so (14-1 pot odds for 3-1 flush by river, 5-1 on turn). Even if you bet and the SB reraised all flush drawers would easily be getting the right odds.
So, shouldn't the right move be to check here, and not to bet as most people (eg Lee Jones in Winning Low Limit Holdem) seem to recommend? If you did check, another diamond came on the turn, and there was action, you can get away from the hand knowing that there's almost definitely a flush out there.
If the turn came and was a blank, then you could raise, or hopefully even reraise. The former would still be giving flush drawers the right odds, even a reraise here would probably be giving them the right odds to chase (70c pot + 10c raise + 20c reraise = $1. 4-1 chance of flush on river; 5-1 pot odds). Maybe a check here would be mathematically correct as well.
What would you do in the above situation, or any hand where callers are getting huge pot odds - raise or check?
It just seems that if you bet in these situations you are paying off at least one of the callers who has a flush draw, or two pair or weird straight, and maybe it's better to wait for hands with more potential to improve (ie nut flushes).
Thanks again for helping my game.
Cheers
Jon
Answer: I'm not sure if I agree with that. Let me start off by talking about how I play from the blinds sometimes in limit holdem with big hands and why. I like your raise with AKs from the blinds. AKs does well in both multi-way pots and small pots. I wouldn't have made the same raise, though, with AKoff or a big pair like AA, KK or QQ. The reason I wouldn't make the raise is similar to what you mentioned above, but still slightly different. The reason I wouldn't raise AA or KK out of the blinds with 7 other people in is because it puts in so much money that then they are getting correct odds to call me on the flop with very little.
On the other hand if I just limp in, I could check raise the flop and skew the odds against them. Even my bet on the flop is now much more potent than betting into a pot with 14 small bets in it. Now, that aside, I would always reraise from the blinds with my AA and KK, because people think twice about calling two more bets, but putting in one more bet is a given. (Note that this only applies to big multi-way pots where lots of people are already in; I usually always raise with AK, AA, KK etc from the blinds when there are just a few people in.)
To check in this position just seems intuitively wrong to me unless you are trying to check raise. Whenever I'm faced with a strategy question that gets cloudy, holding the question against the fundamental rules of poker seems to bring clarity. The most fundamental rule for winning poker, what everything boils down to, is getting paid off on your good hands and not paying off other people's good hands. That's it. Even if we know there is a good chance that there are more cards in the deck that can come to beat your hand than there are ones that keep you ahead, we still bet.
An example might be if you have an over pair against someone with a pair and a flush draw. The pair and the flush draw statistically has a better chance by the river to beat the over pair, but you still have the best hand now, so you bet. Next, flop betting in limit holdem is used for different things besides betting the best hand. If you have AK and flop and Ace or King, bet it. You bet it not only because you think you have the best hand, but you would like to find out right now if someone else has something too.
The flop bet in holdem is used for gaining information. An example to illustrate this point is if the flop is A-J-J and you have AK. What do you do? Check and call? No, you bet into the field and hopefully someone tells you if they hold the Jack right now, so you don't have to pay them off on the expensive betting rounds. If everyone just calls. You bet the turn again. Now if someone raises you, you can muck. That doesn't mean you played incorrectly. Checking and calling the flop tells you nothing.
Next, there are infinite odds in poker. The only way to give someone infinite odds to beat you is if you check to them. I'm much more afraid of checking and giving a free card that could eventually lead to me losing the hand than I am investing a bet into a hand that I figured to already be the leader in -- this is true for both multi-way pots and regular pots. More times than I can count I've tried to get fancy by trying a check raise from early position, only for the entire field to check behind me, and I end up losing because someone caught a rag on the turn that gave them enough to keep calling.
Say someone had a hand like T9 of clubs in your example... You check around worried that the flush draw will catch and everyone checks. The turn card brings not a diamond, but an 8. Now the guy with the T9 has an openended draw that he would never have called with had you just bet. Or what if someone had a hand like JdTs and the turn was the third diamond -- the Ace. Now he might call and hit another diamond on the river to win.
Again, had you bet initially, he would have never called. Another thing is the that exact reason why you want to check is the reason you should bet: there is a lot of money in the pot. Sure, you may be run down later in the hand, but you can reevaluate then. Right now you have the best hand and should put some money out to protect it. Remember, when someone has a drawing hand against you, when you bet you are charging them a fee to continue to try and hit it.
Even if they have the odds to call, you should still charge that fee because in the event of them not hitting (which is the outcome the majority of the time) you make more money. A big part of winning in holdem is making the most with your good hands. You don't get a lot of great hands in poker, so when you do have them you need to maximize the winnings, even if it takes on a little more risk.
With this said, there are times when I slow down, but those are rarely on the flop. If I had AK and the flop was K-7-2 with a diamond draw, I would bet the flop. If I got raised, my guess would be that someone was on a flush draw. My response to that is to reraise. Remember, a flush draw will only get there a little over a third of the time, which means the rest of the time I'll usually win. I want to charge all those people with crappy hands. Don't be afraid to pump the pot when you think you have the best hand. If someone has A2, another one has 78, another one with a flush draw, what does everyone else have? I'm not afraid of any of their hands. You make the majority of your money in limit holdem with hands like these.
You don't have to have the winner that often in situations like these to do well as long as you aren't afraid to make the most with the hands. Taking the approach of limiting your risk against just a flush draw is playing too tightly. You'll find that with 7 people in on the flop, most of them have absolutely nothing and are drawing dead. If you can get them in for more bets, do it. Now, the times you should slow down are on the turn, river and if the flop is really coordinated. I would be more than happy to cap a flop that is K-7-2 when I have AK, but I wouldn't do that if the flop was A-T-2 with two diamonds, or K-Q-T with two diamonds.
With these flops I may already be beat, but there are a lot of cards that can come to ruin my hand, so I'll play a smaller pot with them and see what happens. So you are correct that there are times to slow down, but not when it is just a flush draw on the flop. Let me give an example of a buddies hand he told me about today (it was a good hand for this topic). He had TT. It was a kill pot and a loose aggressive player raised before him. He reraised to try and get heads up with the raiser. And it worked, the flop came back Jack high: J-9-4. He bet and the aggressive player raised him. He called. The turn was his Ten making the board: J-T-9-4 but there were three clubs on the board now. The aggressive player bet into him. He didn't raise his set of tens though, which I agree with. The reason I don't think raising here was a good move is because he could already be beat, any club on the river and he is beat, and any King or Queen makes an ugly board for his hand. He just called and beat the guy who had Kings.
The point is that you should slow down sometimes, but the flop is not the place. Even with a big crowd, your idea is find out where you are at now, so you don't have to play the hand to the river.
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