05- 2-06, LearnTexasHoldem:
Loose Aggressive Limit Holdem
my question is this: have you ever done a column about playing in a limit game with alot of pre-flop raising (could be tight or moderately loose)? when i play in these games i find things very tough... i have checked the archive two or three times and never found anything (but the archive is very large now).
thanks in advance,
steve from toronto
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Answer:
Thanks Steve, I appreciate it. This site has gotten bigger than I ever imagined. When I first started it, I was just hoping to put up a few articles, then it kept growing and growing. Eventually what I would like to do is to categorize the archive and maybe add a google search box. Part of the problem is the question titles don't always best represent the info -- besides the size of the archive is getting unruly. I'm really tight on time right now though, so it may be a bit before those changes happen. There are hundreds and hundreds of pages. It would take me a good chunk of time to sort them all. Also as time permits, I'm going to practice what I preach and show how to turn $100 into a few thousand by playing low limit games. I'll include detailed notes on hands played and avoided, game selection, thought processes, etc. But again, I don't have a lot of free time at the moment.
There are tight aggressive games and then loose ones. Now matter what your skill level, aggressive games are always more nerve racking than typical games -- especially if you are a new player. And the fear isn't unfounded. Aggressive games cause legitimate concern because they are more volatile and potentially damaging to your bankroll. The more action, the more you can both win and lose; it doesn't always work out even like that because you may not have a chance to play in a game like that again for a while -- taking the loss stings more because you can't win it back the next day as easily. So bankroll stuff is more important in aggressive games than regular games.
If you are playing above your roll, I would avoid playing in overly aggressive games, just because they can wipe you out pretty easily. Another piece of info about aggressive games has to do with limits. Generally speaking, the bigger limit you play, the more aggressive the game will be. Pots will be between fewer players, but the players involved will be doing lots more betting. Seeing a hand checked down will be rare. Many players have trouble when moving up from low limit holdem to middle limit holdem because of the aggressiveness. It is uncomfortable and you feel like you are getting pushed around a lot. This can put you on tilt much quicker because you feel like the players are intentionally picking on you.
All of the tips below fall under my universal rule for beating poker: Hand selection is based on the amount of players.
Tight Aggressive Games
A tight aggressive game is one where the players are waiting for solid hands and raising them. These are tough games. Most of the pots will be heads up or three-way.
* The pots are usually heads up. This means very little implied odds, which in turn means you have to play hands that are favored to win to profit. You can't play hands and hope for draws to get there. Contrast a hand like AK and 76s. The AK is favored to win. The 76s won't be getting the odds to play. Your starting hand selection should be based on hands that do well in heads up situations.
* Be a bettor, not a caller. Two points here. First of all, it is very important you don't call other player's raises much with weak hands. It gets tempting sometimes, but if you do this in tight aggressive games, you'll get eaten alive. When you call another player's raise, try to call with a hand that is equal to or stronger than what you assume the other player might have. Errors in poker compound, meaning what seemed like small mistake preflop turns out to be a big mistake by the end of the hand when you flop top pair and can't get away from it. Now I'm not saying never play a hand, just be careful and error on the side of caution when calling.
Again, don't underestimate the difference between calling and betting. AJ isn't the same when calling versus betting -- the hand's value totally changes depending on which side of the barrel you are on. In less aggressive games you can call more because postflop your decisions are easier. You might flop middle pair and call the preflop raisers flop bet, only to have him check behind you on the turn after you check. In aggressive games, count on the opponent betting every time you check. That makes playing marginal hands much harder. Secondly, as calling other player's bets loses value in these games, your betting goes up in value. Just as you don't like having to play against an aggressive player, so don't they.
Fight fire with fire. How you beat these games is to avoid other player's raise, defend your blinds a little and put them to the test with your good and ok hands (with position). You play very tight when calling but loosen up some when you have the gun aimed at them. To really nail this into your head, think about KT. KT is not a hand you would call another player's raise with, but it might be a hand you yourself open raise with (assuming good position). The hand changes value depending on if you have to call with it or if you are the aggressor.
* To expand the previous tip, being the bettor, or having the initiative has significant value in heads up games because with only two players, most of the time neither player will connect with the flop. When you have five players taking a flop, someone will hit something; not so in heads up games. Say we both have the same hand, T9, yet I raised preflop (I'm not recommending you raise with this hand, just using it as an example) and you called from the big blind. The flop misses us both with A - Q - 4. You check and I bet. I win, right? See the value in aggression and the weakness in calling?
For you to win the hand, you would have to do something really tough and try a check raise bluff, which is too risky to make worthwhile. See tight aggressive games are full of tight player, and tight players don't like playing weak hands, especially against raisers. You don't like it and they don't like it. Take another example where your opponent is in the big blind with 87. You raise with AT and he calls. The flop comes back K-8-4. You bet and he calls. If the turn doesn't help him and you bet again, what can he do?
Now I'm not recommending you play like this every hand, it's just to illustrate the value of aggression. It makes him very uncomfortable. What he is hoping is that he will call the flop and you'll check the turn, so he'll know you don't have him beat. Aggression works best against thinking players, not bad players. Bad players will call you down with bottom pair without a care in the world. The good player will have a hard time doing that. Remember this.
* Because there is value in betting, don't call with your draws in heads up situtions. Say you flop a flush draw or straight draw, don't check call. Often times the preflop raiser has nothing but overcards and might submit if you put the heat on him. It's a huge error to check call and let a hand like KJ beat you when the guy only has King high. If you are going to play the hand, play it strongly. (If you get reraised, of course don't keep raising.)
* One word of warning: It is tempting to get into the habit of trying to pick off aggressive players bluffs. This is important, but it can get out-of-hand and turn you into a calling station. Try to play a balanced game, one in which most of your play is done with you being the aggressor, not the caller. Recognize that you'll want to play more hands than you actually should. Many hands will look good but they won't be since you'll have to cold call a preflop raiser. Wait for a spot where you are the aggressor or have a stronger hand to play back at the guy.
* Position matters in tight aggressive games. Play very tight in early and middle position and loosen up towards the back. Play hands in the back that do well in heads up situations. I would still avoid little pairs as any flop will be hard to play with confidence. Raise with your Ax, Kxs, J9, etc. The two spots you will be doing this from are from the seat before the dealer button and the dealer button. What you are saying with these plays is, "my hand fairs to be a favorite over the blinds, plus with the initiative, I'm a big favorite."
* Big blind play. You are getting good odds for calling a raise when in the big blind. The problem is that you have horrible position and have no idea what your opponent has. Plus, like I mentioned above, most of the time the flop will miss you and the opponent will win regardless of his hand. Everyone will lose money playing from their blinds. I would suggest you play a relatively tight game from the blinds, espcially in heads up spots. And if the game is so bad that you have to play really well from the blinds, pick a different game until you get more experience.
* Aggression in terms of an opponent's call. You don't get a ton of hands like JJ, TT, etc. These are strong hands in tight games. When you transition from looser passive games to tighter aggressive ones, sometimes you can miss bets because you lose your nerve on the turn card. Say you have JJ and raise and only the big blind calls. The flop is Q-T-4. He is an aggressive player. You bet and he calls. The turn is another a 5. I'd say your hand is definitely good, unless he check raises the turn.
Remember what aggression means, he'll raise with a lot more hands than you would. That means that if he just calls, he must not have top pair. You need to follow up with bets with hands like this to make money. It is a big mistake in limit holdem to check the turn and then call the river. You want to bet the turn and then check the river so that it doesn't give free cards. Say in our example you get scared and check the turn and a K hits on the river and he had a hand like K8. That's a big mistake. So the point is that aggressive players are sometimes easier to read because they like to jam the pot when they have something, which means when they just call they don't have much. In cases like that second pair or middle pair is usually good.
* I warned against calling above, but measured calling is correct sometimes, especially against overly aggressive players who may or may not have you beat. Say you raise with AQ and the flop is KQ4. An opponent, who is overly aggressive, bets into you or check raises. I might just call him down.
Loose Aggressive Games
A loose aggressive game is one in which there are multi-way pots with multiple bets post preflop and postflop, with many players chasing to the river. Live limit holdem games are like this. You'll have games where there is a cap and 6+ players see the flop.
* Tight aggressive games suck in comparison to these. You don't have to be nearly as accurate with your decisions to make money because the pots are laying you such good odds. In the tight game, most of the time you go 1:1 on your money with another player. That means if you lose a pot and win a pot, you are even -- or even down a little. In the loose aggressive games you can get 3:1, 4:1 or even more on your money. You'll lose many more hands yet still come out way ahead. These are the kind of games where, on a good day, you can win four or five racks. That won't happen at a tight aggressive game.
* Understanding what is par for the course can settle your nerves. The ups-and-downs will be greater in these games, even more so than the tight aggressive games. If you aren't running well, or you are getting run down a lot, you'll routinely be in for three racks on your bad days. The important thing is to have the bankroll to keep playing in them so you can let the math do its eventual work. Remember too, that wins aren't necessarily incremental. You might not run well for a week and then kill the game over a few days, then not run well for another week. You are concerned with how much you win, not in what size chunks the wins occur. Avoid thinking, "I'm going to win two racks today, and tomorrow..."
* Many poker authors would recommend playing the same type of game you play in the tight aggressive game in this game. It is true that the very tight play would win, it just isn't optimal. Think about it this way, how do you make the most money in poker? If you have the winning hand, it doesn't matter if you have the guy crushed with quads versus Ace high. All that matters is that you win the hand. And if that is true, then the way to increase the amount you win is to win more pots. The ideal hand is one that is only a little better than your opponent's. That allows you to win the most pots and hence the most money. When the game is loose, you can loosen up too. I'll get into specifics here in a second.
* Finding the right gear for a game means you are adjusting your play to suit the texture of the game -- how loose you play. You always play AA, but is a hand like 98s worth playing in early position? Poker authors value position in part because you can see what your opponents do before you commit money. Take the 98s. That hand requires that you have probably 4 opponents to make it worthwhile calling. It is my opinion that most poker authors are incorrect -- both on this point and everything else (just kidding).
But seriously, it has worked well for me in the past to make an educated guess about the current hand, based on the previous hands. If I've seen the last hands get 5 callers, even with a raise, then it is logical to think that this hand will see the same results. Why is this important? It's important because in these very loose games, you are looking for reasons to play hands, not fold. Because the pots are so large and the opponents are so bad, you want to maximize the chances for exploiting them. While waiting for position with hands like this is the safe way to play, it won't yield the same results as my approach. What you'll need to do is keep an eye on the game and how loose it is and tighten up or loosen up some as the dynamics change. This is what high level poker is all about: fluid strategy.
* The strategy for beating these loose crazy games is to play flop poker. You'll be playing some strong hands relative to the number of opponents and then basing your postflop play solely on how you connect with the flop. You need to think of your strategy in terms of good preflop hands and good postflop hands. Those two things are separate. AK may be strong preflop, and should be played as such, but postflop it can go to crap if you miss. The correct strategy is to save your money until later. In a tough game where the pot is heads up, the AK still has value, but not in the loose game. Just wait for a better spot. Remember, you don't care if you win a big pot with 74 out of the big blind when no one raises, or AA. It's all the same. Don't get worried or frustrated if you lose with your big pairs, it's going to happen.
* Hand selection. A strong hand is? A hand's strength is a function of the number of opponents. Let's look at this in terms of the amount of raises and the number of players. The breaking point for me is four players. If there are four or more players, then hands that start looking good are suited cards that can make straights and pairs. If there is only one raise and lots of callers, then I would throw in some other hands like Kxs and some unsuited cards that can make middle straights -- hands like JToff, QToff, etc. I hate when I'm reading something and I can't get to the concrete stuff, yet I don't think of poker in terms of rigid rules. So for starting hands, here is a mixture trying to balance both:
- Broadway suited cards (any two suited cards at or above ten): JTs to ATs... It is true that a hand like QTs can be easily dominated by a typical raiser's starting hand. You aren't playing the hand heads up against the raiser though. These hands have many ways to win and when they do win, you often have a very strong hand like the nut straight or a big flush. Also, when you do when with these hands, the flop will usually be really coordinated which ends up making it larger since the loose players will chase more. These hands are ideal for multi-way pots. In the loose game I would always limp in with these hands. I would also call raises with them, with some exceptions.
* Before I forget, let me include this tip now: In very loose limit holdem games, it is important to see the turn card, even if it costs you two bets. Often times you'll pick up a draw on the turn. (I know this isn't standard strategy.) That one or two small bets to see the turn is negligible. And a draw that is picked up on the turn is just as strong as a draw you hand on the flop but missed on the turn.
- Pocket Pairs: 99 and below... In a loose game, you're going to need to improve on the flop with the middle and small pocket pairs to win. You prefer to play these for volume. I would limp in with these in any position in a loose game. Flopping a set is huge in these games because you can often put in a check raise on the turn and get multiple callers. In a tight game, it isn't worthwhile. One of the worst draws in holdem is trying to hit that two outer with your small pocket pair after you missed the flop. You should call one bet in these games sometimes (when the pot is large and the flop isn't coordinated so straights are likely). Again, one bet is negligible and hitting that two outer could mean a rack pot. Seeing the turn card can have other advantages because sometimes it is just checked around and you get free cards. Notice how good play changes based on the amount of players.
- Suited Connectors: These hands fair well in multi-way pots too. Like the above tips, I recommend seeing the turn in very loose games. If you flop a pair, I would also recommend seeing the turn to try and trip up or catch two pair.
- Middle suited card gapers: Q9s to 97s. These hands do just as well as the suited connectors do because they can make straights and flushes. If the game is very loose, I would limp in with them. If there is a raise I would call if there are enough players already in, or I assume will be.
- Axs. A suited ace is good in loose games because of the flush possibility. This is playable like the suited connectors.
- Unsuited middle cards: KT, QT, JT. These are similar to how you would play the suited connectors.
- Kxs/Qxs. This is the bottom of the barrel. A hand like K5s can be played for profit in a very loose game, but you have to be very careful. I wouldn't limp in with this. I would play it for one bet in late positions after other players limped. I would be in only for the flush draw potential.
* Pace is important. You have a lot of "playable" hands above. Just because you get 44 three times in a row, doesn't mean you have play it every time. Try to play a balanced game. You'll have a lot of opportunities with this many starting hands, so look for the best ones -- the fattest return. That will buffer you some. If you feel yourself playing too loosely, reign it in some and play some more solid hands and then loosen up a little later. Part of the reason for this is because if you aren't running well, it is likely you'll start playing worse and get frustrated.
* Postflop play is more important in these loose games than preflop play. First of all, don't get married to hands. QQ is a good hand, but will win less than 20% in very loose games. Getting stubborn can cost you a lot. Secondly, like I mentioned above, see that turn card if it only costs one or two bets. (You'll have to use your judgment as to whether it is likely to get reraised.) Odds are very important.
I recommend you start the odds on the turn in these games and not on the flop. Consider the flop call just about mandatory if it only costs you a bet or two in a large pot. An example is like this. Say you limp in with JTs and four players call, then someone raises and it gets capped -- six players with a cap preflop. The flop is Qd - 6h - 4c. You have JTd. If it only costs you one bet to see the turn, I would. Any diamond, King, or 9 gives you a legitimate draw. (Note, this isn't correct strategy for games with smaller pots.) Next, it is important to recognize strong draws other than the typical flush or openended straight draw. Some of these draws are as follows.
There is the gutshot and two overcards which gives you 10 outs (most likely some aren't good) -- QJ and the flop is 9-8-5. Then there is the pair and gutshot draw, for example having J9s and the flop is Q-9-8. Any Ten gives you the straight, and a 9 might be good too. What you are looking for in a postflop hand is one that is either currently the favorite or drawing to the favorite. If you think you have a hand that is currently the favorite, like having AQ on a queen high flop, you need to do what you can to protect that hand. Often times it is better to raise the turn than the flop, because the turn raise will have some power, while the flop raise will just build a pot with more callers.
* When drawing, draw to strong hands and be aware of what other draws might be out there that could screw your hand even if you make it. For example, when the flop is paired, that isn't the time to try to hit a gutshot draw. In multiway pots, if you have a flush or straight draw, and it will be to the nuts (or close), don't be afraid to cap the betting on the flop. * Remember that in loose aggressive games, the same hands are out there that are in other games.
This cuts both ways: There are the same number of Aces out there and the same number of bad cards. With a bad hand, you can get caught in the middle of a solid player and a loose player. It is important to recognize who the loose players are and who are the players still playing a solid game. Don't get too fancy with the solid players without a good hand of your own. An example might be, say after one person raises and three others call, you call with 98s. The flop is nine high. That isn't what you are looking for. The preflop raiser bets and the loose aggro guy raises. Perspective is important in spots like this.
Number one, there is a good chance you are already beat. Secondly, even if you do have the best hand now, it is likely that you won't by the river. Wait for a better hand. Here is another winning poker axiom: The looser you play preflop, the tighter you have to play postflop. In a game with good players, you can't get away with playing too loosely, in these games you can, provided you are thoughtful postflop.
As the saying goes, discretion is the greater part of valor. Know what you are looking for with a starting hand before you view the flop. With small cards, it isn't a top pair. Take the 98s example again, that would be much stronger in a tight game if you had a nine high flop than in a loose game. The reason is that in a tight game, a nine high flop would most likely only connect with your hand, while in loose games players love hands like K9, A9, etc.
Moderately Loose Aggressive Games
I'm not sure if there is such a thing as this. Maybe we'll just call this kind of game one in which sometimes there are some big loose pots and sometimes it is tight.
* In these games, since we can't accurately estimate the amount of callers behind us, we'll need to tighten up and get more info before we commit money. This includes hands that require the pot to lay big odds to make playable -- hands like suited connectors, the gapers, etc. As a rule, when you don't know something, error on the side of caution, in this case meaning you play a tighter game.
* In all the games, but especially this one, base your starting hand decision making on who the raiser is. What I mean by this is if you notice that one player is very loose and aggressive, don't assume he has a great starting hand every time he raises. Don't fold to him as much. Likewise, if you notice that another player is only raising solid hands, avoid them. A good example would be a hand like AT. Against a tight raiser, I wouldn't call that. On the other hand against the loose raiser, I would, if not reraise.
On a final note, when I was teaching my girlfriend how to play cards, she had trouble moving up in limits because of aggression. Being a young attractive girl, the other players would often try to intimidate her with betting. For a time there, she was laying down a lot of winners. What I told her was that the cards don't change as you move to bigger limits. Also, it is important to put everything in context.
A raise from one player doesn't mean the same thing as a raise from another player. If you play a solid game, you have nothing to fear. Against an overly aggressive player, you'll win some pots and lose some pots, but in the end you'll beat him. The only way he can beat you is if his betting gets you rattled and throws you off your game. Maintain a level head and let him hang himself. My girlfriend was worried that some of the players were running her off her hands when the flop appeared as though it missed her after she raised preflop. My advice to her was to just give the baby his bottle -- no worries. The player might be stealing a small pot from you when you don't have much yourself. Big deal. You'll take him for a big pot when you do have something. And it works, she does fine.
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