07-20-04, LearnTexasHoldem:

Asking To See Folded Hands

Question:I now see you had already answered my previous question on one of your prior FAQ postings. However, I stumbled across this site. They say that you only have to show your hand to someone that has called or raised:

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"The Showdown -- As in 7-Stud, the best 5 card hand wins. Players may form their final hands from any combination of the table cards and their own pocket cards, even ignoring the pocket cards and using only the table cards if they wish. One point on which Hold'Em departs from other poker games is the option for any player to see another player's pocket cards once they've been mucked. Provided the requesting player has Called or Raised the last Bet made, they simply ask the dealer and the mucked cards will be retrieved and shown. Since asking the dealer isn't generally possible online, sometimes, game logs will show the final mucked cards. To the newcomer this move may seem incredibly invasive, especially if they come from a Draw poker background where such a move would be heresy. However, in the Hold'Em context, it's one of the few ways to gain insight into an opponent's play style. And how and when the pocket cards are played is a critical part of the game."

Answer: Yes that is correct. If the person called the river (or bet or raised it), then anyone at the table can request to see their hand. Usually that is bad form though and you only do that if you are in the hand and legimately have a question as to what they had. Normally this is used though by people who are pissed off that they folded the winner. The dealer isn't supposed to remove cards from the muck pile though so if your cards hit it, then they shouldn't turn them over. Also, like the above states, you have to request to see all hands before the showdown. You can't ask later.

Question 2: I read the reply to my post dated 7/20/04 "Asking to see folded hands" and I'm sorry to beat a dead horse but now I'm even more confused.

The e-mail that I sent to you says that the folded hand can only be seen by a player "provided [that] the requesting player has Called or Raised the last Bet made." This suggests that merely "betting" in the showdown is not enough to grant you access to those folded cards. You must Call or Raise.

Your post says "If the person called the river (or bet or raised it), then anyone at the table can request to see their hand."

These are contrary. So which is it?

Can anyone at the table see the hand or is it only someone that is in the showdown? And when is that access granted?

Maybe this following scenario can help straighten it out:

The River is turned. Now it's showdown time. Alan bets, Bob folds, Carl has been out since the flop, David calls, and Ernie calls. Alan shows the winner. David & Ernie fold. Who gets to see David's cards? Who get's to see Ernie's cards?

- winneronline appears to read that only Ernie gets to see David's cards and David gets to see Ernie's cards.

- your post appears to state that everyone at the table gets to see David's & Ernie's cards.

And finally, what is the norm? Should losing players show their hole cards before mucking or is it typical that a losing player would just muck and nobody asks to see?

Answer 2: Yes, the answer is option two: anyone at the table who requests can see David and Ernie's cards. A player at the table can request to see another players cards who was involved in a showdown (whether that be bet, called, raised, etc).

As for the norm, it is bad poker etiquette to ask to see other players folded cards unless you have a good reason. It is technically legal but most players will find it offensive especially since they have lost the pot -- it's kicking them while they are down. Losing players should NOT show their cards unless they also have a good reason to do so. You don't want to unnecessarily give away information that could help your opponents.

Lastly, there may be different ways of handling this but every cardroom I've played in has used the law I stated.

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