06-12-06, LearnTexasHoldem:
Preflop Bet Sizes In NL Holdem Cash Games
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The first one is position. I figure that the better your position is, the smaller the opening bet should be. The argument is that with good position, it is not so bad to let more people into the pot, since you will have the positional advantage during the rest of the hand. On the other hand, you will want to force more opponents out early on, when you have a bad position. I am not sure how much to vary my bet sizes though, as I've not seen the specifics of this strategy discussed anywhere. The way I like to play is to raise 4 BBs + 1 BB per limper when I am in early position. I MP i lower it to 3 BBs +1, and in late position I bet only 2.5 BBs + 1 per limper. What are your thoughts on this?
The second factor which I just thought about after watching a game of high stakes NLHE on PokerRoom, is stack size. I was wondering if you should start to make larger opening bets when you have a big stack? My feeling is that this will give you the advantage of making the smaller stacks fear you and force them to play fewer hands. But when should you make the adjustment? When you have a 2:1 advantage in chips compared to your opponent, or should the advantage be bigger? And how much larger should you make the bet?
Your thoughts on this matter will be greatly appreciated.
/Adam
P.S. I am aware, that there are very few things in poker that you should "always" do and equally few that you should "never" do. But I do believe in having a standard line for the most common situation even though I don't always choose to take that line.
Answer:
I don't agree with the other advice that you should never adjust the amount of your opening bet -- not a huge disagreement, but somewhat of one. I prefer flexibility in no limit, above everything. It's my opinion that using reasoning and my experience I can extract more money from my opponents by playing a more open game. Let me comment on your two points before I try and support my take on things.
First of all, I don't think that position should influence your bet amount, at least not how you mentioned it here. Take late position and not raising as much. What does that do? Granted you have better position than your opponents the rest of the hand, but that should make you try and get the most out of the hand, not slow down on them. If you have an edge, you want to maximize that edge, not be nice to the opponents. Also, players now days expect other players in late position to raise with a wide range of hands, not just premium ones. This is why I never slow play my hands in late position when I'm first to act. I raise my AA, KK, etc just like I would else where. If anything this disguises the strength of my hand. Players are more tenacious out of the blinds than ever before, so if you are on the button with a big hand, make sure to play it fast. You'll get paid off big most likely. Next, if you limp in certain spots, especially being a tight player, it is suspicious to other good players. For example, if you limp in on the button when no one else has played yet, or you limp in under-the-gun, that's usually a signal that you have a monster. It is much better, including for the sake of deception, to play the hand strong.
Now let's take early position and raising more than you would in late. Again, I'm not sure what this accomplishes. I would suggest you raise enough to get the amount of players you want to be against postflop. If we look at it this way, it doesn't matter so much about position as it does how many other players are already in the hand. You mentioned something along those lines and I agree with you. An example might be if you have a hand like QQ and 5 players came in with a small raise. Here, I would raise much more than I would normally raise, so I can limit some of the competition. This will be one of the reasons I list below for varying bet sizes: to limit the amount of players in.
Your next factor was about chip stack size. Yes and no. If I understand your point, you mean that you can kind of run the table by bullying everyone with big bets. That will only have limited results. You can't really leverage a big stack of chips in a cash game as much as you might think. His cards and your cards will supercede chip stack sizes. And actually, if the guy has a smaller stack, sometimes that makes him almost more willing to call you, not less. On the other hand, if since everyone at the table has a lot of chips and their average raises are getter larger, and called, then you too should play along at the same pace. So yes you can raise more if there is more money being pushed around and played with, but no you can't really push players around that much -- you can, but it won't be that effective in the long run.
Here are some reasons why I prefer varying my betting amounts some (in no order):
* Limit the players in the pot preflop or postflop. I mentioned this one above already. Say you have a hand that you don't want a million callers. A regular raise of 4x the big blind won't deter them from calling. Likewise, a little raise postflop won't discourage them either. Instead, you need to bump the bet enough to get some of the guys out. We talked about position above. The general rule is that the more players in, the more money in the pot, the more you have to raise to get the right results -- especially if there are some loose callers, since they will call, making it more likely other players will call too. Big pairs are very vulnerable when too many players take the flop. And the smaller your pair, like JJ or QQ, the less you like it yet.
* Making more money. If you know that a guy is a calling station and will pay you off more, then there is no reason to slow down against him. This has to do with postflop play more, but remember that the initial bets usually set the pot size which the later bet sizes are based upon. Sometimes you'll find guys who are bad players, or just pissed off playing badly that day. You need to give yourself the flexibility to take full advantage of their bad play.
* Deception. If you don't even know how much you are going to raise preflop with the hand, it can be very confusing for your opponents. And the point isn't to only raise more when you have a better hand and less when you have a not as good hand. You mix it up. The point is to just give the opponents something else to try and figure out. You don't always have to vary your bets, just now and then. Confusion is good. Whenever you can do something to keep your opponents off balance, it is beneficial.
For lower limit games, when there is limping, I like to raise a lot of hands. Even hands like suited connectors, I'll just double the big blind. It isn't to stop players from calling, or to represent a big hand, it's just to build the pot some if I do hit. Postflop I just play the hand normally: if I hit the flop great, otherwise I'm done with it. It adds deception and desensitizes the opponents to my raises. I have no intention of playing the hand if I get reraised for a lot. No limit holdem is partly about mind games. Have you ever just gone all-in with AA preflop? Try it sometime another guy raises. I like to mix it up like that.
By mixing things up you add value to your future hands. You can be seen as a kind of wild player, even though you are only varying your play a little and still playing a solid game. It is good that you are aware of what is being taught in today's poker literature. You should try to use that against the opponents. Next time you have the nuts, try to overbet a player and sucker them in that way. Or if you have the nuts, fire out a small bet into them, feigning weakness, only to reraise them.
* Table Image. Poker is about getting paid off on the good hands. You want to play as risk free as you can, but still get action. As you play bigger games, getting action will be harder, so you'll have to do things to help that. You want to find ways that are as cheap as possible because every bit you give away trying to mix it up cuts into your profit. In a no limit game, usually the preflop betting isn't that much compared to the rest of the hand. This is an area where you can use add a little variety to your game, loosen up your table image some, while not giving away the farm. Players rarely ever see the big picture.
For example, they may notice that a player raises what seems like too many hands preflop, but they fail to notice that the player plays well postflop. If you mix up your raising amount some, you could be viewed as less of a tight player -- which is a good thing.
* Isolation. There are some hands that you would prefer to win outright without taking a flop. If you bet more you can win the pot right then. Say one guy raised and you had a hand like 77. You know the guy is raising a weak hand. Taking a flop will result in overcards. Sometimes it's better just to reraise enough to make him fold.
That's all I can think of for now. I think there are more reasons to mix up the betting amounts postflop than preflop. I think it is still helpful preflop, though. You finished up your question with a good point, namely, that there are no rules set in stone for how you have to play hands. No limit holdem gives you options that limit holdem doesn't. Even if you prefer to make the standard raise, I think it would be helpful to learn other options too. You want as many tools in belt as you can get. The way you make the most money in no limit holdem is when you are attentive and experienced enough to get in tune with the game and how everyone is feeling and playing. Then you can really exploit them and make more than what you would if you just bet the same amount preflop -- 4x the BB, or postflop.
The best advice I can give anyone who is learning poker is to not take anything at face value. Work things out for yourself. Even if you come to the same answer, you'll have a deeper understanding -- you'll know the "whys?" instead of just mechanical play. The highest form of learning is application. When you can apply what you've learned to knew scenarios, you'll be an expert.
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